Legal Challenges Facing Texas Teachers Amid Certification Crisis

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

This podcast is for educational purposes only, does not constitute legal advice and does not create an attorney-client relationship. If you need legal assistance about a legal problem, contact an attorney.

Speaker 2: 0:14

Howdy and welcome to Know your Regulator, the podcast that inspires you to engage. I’m your host, Simone Murphy, and joining me for this continued coverage is our lovely panel of attorneys Carrie Bloodsaw, LaJuana Acklin and Troy Bollier. In early November, we released an episode about a breaking story where a teacher certification cheating ring scandal was uncovered here in Texas. Prospective teachers were paying to have someone pass the certification exam so they could be granted their teaching licenses. New data obtained by TEA shows that these certification types ranged from special education to social studies, to even physical education.

Speaker 2: 0:59

Now TEA has released over 100 names of the teachers who have allegedly obtained their licenses through fraudulent means, and we are here to give you the scoop. So we’ll start with the name. Release, Luana, we’ll talk to you first. I know that this has got to be extremely uncomfortable for some of these teachers who are named, and a question that I’m sure is being thrown around is can they actually release my name? Can you talk to us about the accused identities becoming public and some of the repercussions that can result from being named in a high profile case like this?

Speaker 3: 1:36

Sure, when it comes to investigations, they have the right to approach the investigation how they see fit, including disclosing the names of individuals who are being investigated. Also, with the State Board of Educators certification, the certifications are public, so anytime there is an investigation against an educator, anyone can go and look that up and see that they’re being investigated. So I also think that gives the agency room to release those names. So I don’t think there’s anything being violated as far as the educators are concerned with that release, since that part of the investigation meaning that this individual was being investigated is essentially public anyway.

Speaker 3: 2:29

As far as the individuals that were released, it’s very interesting that the Texas Education Agency, instead of just posting their names on their website, actually released it to the media, so it’s not just something that’s public, someone can go research. It’s really been disseminated throughout the state and even the country, since this is a national news story and with that that really puts everyone on notice as far as what’s going on in the state. Also, too, it really brings out some sort of some implications with these educators A, they’re possibly unqualified and also, too, I do think that releasing those names, it helps to shore up the trust of the public, because the public’s trust has been breached by this scandal and with the names being released, it really tells the public hey, we’re here for you, we’re here to protect the public and protect our children. Here’s one of the ways we’re doing that. So with those names being released, it implies that these are the individuals that may be possibly unqualified, and then that gives the public and the school district the wherewithal of what they want to do with that information.

Speaker 2: 3:55

Gotcha, and that makes sense, kind of getting everybody on the same page, having the public be on the same page, so to speak, with the investigation, the public be on the same page, so to speak, with the investigation. Carrie, can you talk to us about the potential criminal charges and the penalties that these 100 plus individuals under investigation may face, and is it likely that the DA goes after these 100,? I think there may be 200 teachers, some of them have not been named yet, but is it likely that the DA’s office would go after them as well?

Speaker 1: 4:29

Yeah, so that’s a really good question. So yeah, at this point what we know is TIA released that list of about 100 names. But what we know from the DA’s prior statements, kind of the articles that hit the press when we first did our original podcast, is that there’s about 100 other participants involved too. So at this point, just the kind of original five, that sort of crafted this criminal organization, so to speak, have been charged. But every teacher that was involved would still fall under those same charges that the original five were charged with. So this like conspiracy, this criminal group activity, which is how the DA charged it, is going to include all these other individual participants. Even though those teachers you know most likely only participated one time right the isolated occasion they paid them, they got someone to take the test for them they’re still considered part of that criminal entity under the code. So they definitely are at risk.

Speaker 1: 5:32

And I would say, based on the gravity of the situation and how the DA has kind of been going after the original five thus far, has kind of been going after the original five thus far, I think it’s pretty likely that criminal indictments are forthcoming for these new teachers. I think what’s really working against them is, like I said, the gravity of the situation. So there’s not going to be a teacher that participated in this that didn’t know that it was like such a grand scheme, right, because you wouldn’t have heard about it had you not known. Maybe a couple other teachers that had you know, paid and had somebody take the test for them, right.

Speaker 1: 6:19

So because of that it kind of automatically puts that onus and intent on the teachers for them to know that this was a big organization and that, as we see, you know from the release of names, it’s all over Texas, I mean even up into Dallas. So I think it’s going to be pretty difficult for some of these teachers if they want to kind of try to argue that they didn’t know about this kind of crime ring, so to speak, um, because I think the first question a detective or the da is going to ask is okay, well then, how’d you find out about it in the first place, right? So that really kind of puts that um, criminal intent on these teachers as well as the original five. Obviously, in terms of like punishment or kind of having the ability to maybe work out a better plea, these teachers are going to be in a better position than, you know, the five that created it, but they’re still definitely, you know, criminally liable, just as the other five are.

Speaker 3: 7:29

Gotcha.

Speaker 1: 7:30

Yeah, these teachers. If they are aware of that, they should definitely be paying attention if law enforcement are, you know, trying to get in touch with them. I would say that probably most people on that list have already had some type of encounter with law enforcement.

Speaker 2: 7:46

Yeah, and kind of to piggyback off that, what should an individual do if they do receive a phone call from the DA’s office or Texas Education Agency or really anyone kind of trying to get more information from them about this investigation?

Speaker 1: 8:06

Yeah, I think as a lawyer, me, LJ and Troy would all say call a lawyer, Don’t talk to anybody. That doesn’t mean that you’re not going to be compliant or that you’re not going to you know, work with them and provide the information that you have. It just means that you should talk to a lawyer first before you go and say everything about what you did.

Speaker 2: 8:30

Troy, I wanted to kind of get your perspective. How do these investigations impact licensing standards and oversight, and should we expect to see changes within TEA’s testing process, and when might we see that change?

Speaker 4: 8:47

Simone, that’s a really good question. So obviously, anytime you have something that kind of makes the news, especially the national news, that impacts the law and the regulatory world, you’re going to see the different groups of people that are impacted by that regulatory world. They’re going to react, you know. So I would expect. You know in January we have the legislative session coming up so you may see some state legislators take positions or even propose bills in connection with this scandal. You’re probably going to see TEA making some of their own in-house internal adjustments. You know they have rulemaking authority and so they can amend or supplement or even create entirely new rules. You know they do have rules on the books that do address fraud and cheating and any type of misrepresentation in connection with taking the exam. There’s plenty of robust authority in the current rules and in the Texas Education Code to facilitate them taking disciplinary action against license holders. But I do think they’re going to.

Speaker 4: 10:09

It just tends to be, you know, when it’s on the public’s mind and obviously the public’s looking for some reassurance that our lawmakers, our regulators, are aware of, in constantly adjusting things in order to account for this. You know it tends to happen in all kinds of industries when you have a scandal, a scheme, a fraud situation, you know people are exploiting aspects of the current system. So there’s a tendency to want to say, hey, what do we need to adjust and massage so that we can close that door, prevent that inappropriate avenue or that opportunity for fraud or cheating? It’s not to say that those kinds of things are going to go away for good, but you try and wall off and close off those you know vulnerabilities so that it makes it harder for people to commit ethics violations and fraud and engage in criminal conduct. So I would definitely expect to see that as we head into 2025, especially with the legislature meeting.

Speaker 2: 11:10

Yeah, absolutely, and that makes complete sense. Really, really great insights. Y’all Some good stuff. I do want to shift the focus more to you know the journey that some of these accused may have ahead of them. Lj, starting with you, can you walk us through the general complaint and investigation process? What kind of timeline are these folks on and what do they need to watch out for when they are navigating the system?

Speaker 3: 11:40

Sure. So just a little bit of context. Typically with Texas Education Agency a complaint, you know, starts with some sort of report, some sort of information given to the agency about the educator that would spark an investigation. Typically they’re sent a notice and they have a certain amount of days to respond to that notice. As I stated earlier, on their certificate there is a flag that said this individual is being investigated by the investigations division. On that initial notice they get to respond as to why that should come off and if they don’t respond or they don’t give a proper answer as to why it should, it typically stays on until it’s their turn to have an informal settlement conference before the investigator and they get to tell their side of the story.

Speaker 3: 12:30

But in this particular situation we know that on the criminal side this has been investigated for about four years.

Speaker 3: 12:37

So that information that was discovered during the criminal process, the names that may have been produced, was probably given over to TIA and then that’s probably how that investigation started with these particular educators.

Speaker 3: 12:57

So for these 100, they already have the flag on their certificate and they’re just awaiting the process to be able to tell their side of the story to an investigator. And this is where I think we should reiterate please call an attorney, because an attorney can really navigate you through the process of how to respond in this particular situation. And as far as the timeline, typically the timeline can take months, but what I foresee since this is such a huge deal and it’s statewide and it’s made national news I believe the agency may shift their priorities and focus on this and they may actually dedicate time to where it’s truncated and it doesn’t take as long to resolve these particular cases, especially since they are connected to a criminal matter. So, with that said, the best way to navigate is, of course, get an attorney, be proactive in getting an attorney, so we can guide you through the process to try to get the best outcome in light of circumstances.

Speaker 4: 14:03

And Simone, to piggyback on what LaWanna is saying, you know TEA does have rules that prioritize certain types of conduct. Already the core of what these teachers are being accused of does fall within those, that top priority, that first tier types of offenses. So LaJuan is exactly right that TEA already has the infrastructure in place to prioritize these over maybe some other complaints or less significant violations. So I think you know, when you’ve got things going heavy in the media and you’ve got a legislative session in ongoing where you know the legislators may be looking to the agency to be aggressive and prompt and thorough in responding to these trust issues, these issues, that kind of tug at the school system and the confidence we put in teachers, I suspect you’re going to see quick, swift, moving investigations and disciplinary action by TEA.

Speaker 2: 15:12

Good to know, good for our viewers to know too. And Carrie to LJ’s point of representation. Can you explain the role of an attorney and how an individual’s rights are protected during questioning, hearings and negotiations?

Speaker 1: 15:29

Yeah. So just like if Tia opens a complaint against you, if you are indicted or if law enforcement contacts you, the burden of proof, the rules, the law are different. Tia’s rules are different than the penal code, and so it’s just imperative on the criminal side right when, like we talked about in the original podcast, if they are charged like the original five are they are facing decades of possible prison time. You certainly want to have counsel there with you during kind of an initial interview with a detective or an investigator. There’s several hearings that move once a case gets indicted and you really need a lawyer there that’s going to be able to talk to you know, the assistant DAs and kind of negotiate on your behalf to make sure that you know you’re keeping this prison time off the table, right. I’m sure that’s probably the biggest fear for teachers out there thinking about a possible criminal case, and so when that’s on the line, you definitely want to make sure that you have representation. So that would probably be most important. Like Troy mentioned earlier, these rules are in place.

Speaker 1: 16:56

Tia has code sections talking about how you can’t cheat.

Speaker 1: 17:03

It’s a pretty obvious and blatant violation, and so ignorance is not a defense, it’s not a defense to TIA and it’s not a defense with a criminal case.

Speaker 1: 17:11

So you certainly want to make sure that you have representation so that they can figure out any type of you know mitigated argument that you might have. And I think most you know lay people, if they were just contacted and they didn’t have a lawyer, would sort of fall to that you know, oh, I, you know, I didn’t know or I wasn’t sure, and that’s just not going to be your best bet, especially, you know, based on the circumstances. So I think that’s kind of what would be our prime you know job. In any criminal attorney’s primary focus is is looking to see if they can distinguish your case from these other 200 people. If you have a background story that kind of caused you to make this you know poor decision and have this bad, you know lapse in judgment, that’s going to be what an attorney’s job is going to be able to figure that out and then see the best way to you know, disclose that to you know, in a criminal case, the DA, or in a TIA case, to the staff attorney involved.

Speaker 3: 18:20

I want to add on to something that Garrett said. So, according to reports, you have teachers that can pass certification exams, but you also have teachers that wanted promotions. So those teachers probably already had certifications but they wanted a different one to make more money. And with that, that’s where having an attorney to help you navigate those specific types of cases, because those cases may have more of a consequence than an individual that may have more of a Texas education agency or never had a criminal matter you know they only paid that one fee to pass this one time versus an individual that engaged these individuals because they wanted to make more money. So they may be looked at more differently and they may need they will need an attorney to help resolve that in a better manner than obviously you would on your own, because that’s a different yeah, that’s a different level of dare I say it, even greed on behalf of an educator, if that would be their facts and that they have substantial evidence to with the agency.

Speaker 2: 19:34

Yeah, absolutely, and some of these accused may be completely innocent. And to that, would they still have to comply with agency requests and talk to the agency? If they’re, you know, getting phone calls or emails, what might that look like for that type of individual?

Speaker 1: 19:58

You definitely wouldn’t want to just ignore the response because you feel like there’s been some type of mistake and it’s not you. You know there’s a TIA rule that basically says you have to participate in the investigation. So any contact that a teacher out there gets, they certainly need to to respond to, even if it’s just um, to tell them like here’s my you know attorney’s name.

Speaker 4: 20:26

That’s exactly right and I think it’s really important because, like Carrie and LaWanna have said, you know these cases in some sense are going to be very open and shut right. They’re going to have the records. They’re going to have the documents. Being a former regulator, I can tell you that state agencies do a lot of investigating behind the scenes before anything ever comes out, and I’ve participated in joint regulatory and criminal investigations and there’s very thorough and there’s a lot of sharing of information. So when it does finally come out, they really do have all the documents, the evidence, the witnesses lined up how you are going to have a conversation with your regulator and potentially with law enforcement about this situation that you find yourself in, and an important aspect of that is demonstrating that you language they use is cooperate with the agency’s investigation.

Speaker 4: 22:03

They also have another rule provision that says you want to make sure you’re not eating into the impression that you’re leaving with the government about your cooperativeness and how forthright you’re being. And two, you don’t want to then step into another basis for discipline. You don’t want to then step into another basis for discipline. So then you’re not just looking at you know the cheating scandal issues, but then, oh, this person’s not being cooperative. So we’re going to add an additional charge for failing to cooperate failing to provide documents, no-transcript, but they look like they’re not being cooperative. Maybe we will refer them for criminal prosecutions. You don’t want things to escalate and get worse, and that is what always happens when you avoid things.

Speaker 2: 23:30

Yeah, it sounds like bottom line, innocent, guilty, consulting with an expert getting representation to kind of lay all this out to you know, the investigator, the board, the DA. It sounds like that is what is in your best interest. Like I said, innocent or guilty, don’t try and handle this on your own, absolutely.

Speaker 4: 23:55

Because, again, you know you wouldn’t go in to get open heart surgery and say, no, nevermind, I’m going to handle that on my own. You know, if you need a root canal, you go to a dental expert. It’s the same thing for legal things. You know, apart from all the facts that can get complicated, there’s a whole body of legal provisions, whether at the criminal level, the regulatory level, that you know teachers are just not trained in, and so it just you’re not going to get the kinds of results that you want if you’re trying to do that on your own.

Speaker 2: 24:29

Yeah, well, as today’s episode comes to a close, I want to kind of go around the panel and if each of you could just give a key reminder or a key takeaway that you would like our viewers to know or to just really have on their top of mind awareness. Luana, let’s start with you.

Speaker 3: 24:51

For me, I think, a key takeaway is, of course, you want to always get an attorney, but better yet, honesty is the best policy. Even if you were dishonest, you were involved with this, because being honest may get you a better resolution than if you aren’t. This isn’t one of those situations. You want to have your story and stick to it. If you were involved with this, you want to be as honest as possible, because they honestly may get you a better resolution than than not.

Speaker 2: 25:28

Yeah, absolutely Carrie.

Speaker 1: 25:32

Yeah, I definitely agree and, and I would say you know, like any legal process, especially if you’re dealing with two right, with TIA or with a district attorney’s office, this is a marathon not a sprint.

Speaker 1: 25:46

This is not a fast process and, specifically with TIA, in terms of a timeline, if you are under investigation which most likely all of these individuals will at least have a preliminary criminal investigation your TIA case is going to be put on hold until your criminal case is resolved. So with that, like we know, some of these teachers have been put on leave, but some of them have been put in different positions. It’s kind of imperative to know that this is going to be a long process. So, whatever you can do to keep yourself in the best position by, like we said, you know, retaining counsel or at least talking to counsel before you talk to law enforcement or before you talk to TIA, just kind of understanding that you want to keep the lines of communication open. You want to respond when requested, because this is not something that’s going to wrap up, you know, in a month. This is something that will probably be going on for several months or maybe even into the years if you’re working alongside TIA and law enforcement or the DA’s office.

Speaker 4: 27:00

Simone, I would just say to our viewers be proactive Now. Whether that means you’re one of these hundred and you need to be proactive and contact legal counsel now, even though maybe you haven’t heard from TEA quite yet, or maybe you’re in that other hundred who haven’t been released yet, it’s better to get ahead of things now. Talk with good legal counsel who knows what they’re doing. If you need to consult with a criminal attorney, they can do that as well. But being proactive, you know, and getting information right Information is power and when you have a better understanding of what’s going on, you can make better decisions for yourself. And that may mean you know if you’re not someone you’re a teacher, but you’re not caught up in this scandal. You know being proactive is look as we head into 2025, see what changes may be on the horizon that could affect you. If you’re a student teacher and you’re about to apply, you know.

Speaker 4: 28:00

What changes could the legislature make this session that come into effect? What rules might TEA change? They may change some of the provisions with their contractors that provide the testing services. So my message really to people in the education field is be proactive, get more involved, be aware of what’s going on in your industry and that gives you some power and some control over your career and your profession as you move forward. Whether you’re caught up in the scandal or not, it’s definitely an eye-opener on the importance of staying aware of what’s going on in your regulated universe.

Speaker 2: 28:45

Absolutely, absolutely, I want to add something to that.

Speaker 3: 28:48

The Texas Education Agency notified all the school districts, but they only notified them of the educators that were employed. That could be a part of this from the 22 and 23 school year in 23 and 24. So that means if you moved on, if you no longer work for a school district, if you’re in totally different industry, it doesn’t mean that you’re in the clear. So if you’ve had a certification with TIA, although you may not teach anymore, if that certificate is still valid, the Texas Education Agency still can come after you. This is a criminal matter. You can still be prosecuted. So just because you may not teach anymore, if you were part of the scandal, you really should still seek legal counsel.

Speaker 2: 29:33

Wow, yeah, really really great insights there. I think a lot of people don’t realize that at all. Well, as today’s episode comes to a close, I want to thank you all so much for your time today. Thank you for diving deep into this story with me, and the story is still ongoing, so continue to stay with know your regulator for updates and stay tuned for more episodes.

Speaker 1: 29:56

Thanks y’all know your regulator. The podcast that inspires you to engage.